After I did my “Dawkins experiment” I decided to go back and have a real conversation with Mr Dawkins admirers (they wouldn’t like the “followers” word).
So I decided to tell them about my God – the One who I know. (you have to be registered for this forum)
I wasn’t impressed by their understanding but any way, it was expected.
Then I decided to show them their belief.
According to Richard Dawkins “there almost certainly is no God”.
I didn’t want to prove that “there almost certainly is God”, because I can imagine how difficult it would be for atheist to change their belief to such a degree.
So, my intent was to proof that the possibility for God’s existence or not existence is 50/50.
Following is my forum posting in Mr. Dawkins forum with small change made to cover my next posting.
[posting START]
The universe is described as matter, space and time.
I support the argument that Consciousness must be included too and I must prove it.
How can it be proved.
If I am right then the consciousness as component of the Universe must affect somehow the matter, the space or the time.
Only then we can agree that the Universe is consists of four (not of three) components.
You will not take any proof from the past because you haven’t seen it, but you will agree if the science has registered consciousness to affect matter.
1) According to the latest study of Dr. Jon-Kar Zubieta, person’s belief can make the brain to produce its own painkillers which is scientific proof that the mind can affect and control the matter.
2) All miracles where person is cured are argued with auto-suggestion (the person cured himself)
Still that is proof that consciousness affects the matter.
3) Although Time is a component of the Universe it is relative only to the consciousness.
4) Although Space is component of the Universe, it is related ONLY to the consciousness.
The last two (3 and 4) do not affect the matter but the way we observe it which makes matter related to the consciousness.
You can argue or accept the first two, but according to the science they are true.
That would make Consciousness the forth component of the Universe.
If you agree on that or can not argue it, I have the “none-preaching” right to place my statement against yours, and it is:
Matter is delusion of the Consciousness.
Now you can argue my statement by proving it wrong.
Let’s assume that I have no interest to prove it right.
The above supporting evidences are enough to reach at least 50/50.
That would make Dawkins very wrong.
I can only comfort him with the fact that my argument is given fore the first time in his web site. 😆
(Hope I don’t sound sarcastic…)
I suppose that there is more to be said on all this, but let’s start from here.
[posting END]
And then the thread became a little boring…
There is not much to be said from atheist side.
Now they have the evidence which they are always asking for using that smile… you know…
And I have time now to have a thought about the self delusion which makes professors to mistake God with Religion.
Just imagine, to waste such a time for writing book like “The God Delusion” in which you prove that God doesn’t exist because the religion is wrong. Wouldn’t it be more appropriate to name the book “The Religion Delusion”?
Because what on earth Religion has to do with God’s existence, professor!?
Just because you met few damn stupid pastors doesn’t make God a delusion.
Did you ever consider the possibility, Mr. Dawkins, that believing has nothing to do with the truth.
So if my granny tells you that God is white bearded old man in the heaven that has nothing to do with the truth, and you can not say that God doesn’t exist just because this belief doesn’t fit the science and the logic.
Did you ever asked yourself how a belief appears?
Some thousands years ago a tribe (in Europe let say) decided to belief in God.
Could happen.
They decided that God is spirit and only good people will go to Him.
They could belief that only the one who kills most enemies will go to God and that would serve their surviving best, but they choose the stupid belief to be good.
Then another tribe on the other side of the earth (Australia) decided to belief in the same God for the same reason.
Could happen. Science can prove it.
But then on the other side of the earth (Asia) another tribe started to belief in the same God for the same reason.
And then another tribe in Siberia did the same.
And then another tribe, somewhere else…
Hm… What science say about this?
If two (or even more) civilizations without any connections created the belief that this world is a dream, would that be a signal to look not only in the white bearded old man as a God?
Or you chose to oppose the most easiest God who can be rejected with your intellectual capabilities.
Come one dear professors, try to think like carpenters.
It might help more than your title degrees.
Umm.. you do realise that you just have a whole bunch more things to prove right? You haven’t finished by a long shot…
“You can argue or accept the first two, but according to the science they are true.”
But your conclusions aren’t. That’s the problem. You seem unable to see the difference.
Examples:
“1) According to the latest study of Dr. Jon-Kar Zubieta, person’s belief can make the brain to produce its own painkillers which is scientific proof that the mind can affect and control the matter.”
The brain, which is a collection of matter, produces the chemicals. Matter affecting Matter.
The scientific argument would in fact be quite the reverse of what you’ve said – that the matter (the brain) creates what we know of as the mind.
“2) All miracles where person is cured are argued with auto-suggestion (the person cured himself)
Still that is proof that consciousness affects the matter.”
See above, this is basically the same point as 1, and both are demonstrations of the Placebo effect. An effect I’m sure Dawkins is aware of, and one that is very well researched and documented.
“3) Although Time is a component of the Universe it is relative only to the consciousness.”
BZZZT! Unsupported assertion alert!
Time is a measurement, which has nothing to do with consciousness. It is, in fact, a measurement of the period it takes for a certain number vibrations of an atom (cesium I think, but look it up if you want).
“4) Although Space is component of the Universe, it is related ONLY to the consciousness.”
Again, an unsupported assertion, and in fact one that can be destroyed in the same manner – space is a measurement. Measurements are mathematical, and have a fundamental root. In terms of distance (ie – spacial measurement) a metre is 1â„299,792,458 of a light-second. That’s just one example.
So… your 4 steps are:
1) Unsupported (and Scientifically False) assertion.
2) Same assertion as 1
3) Different Unsupported assertion.
3) Different Unsupported assertion, but one that relies on the same flaw as 3.
So.. um… you were saying?
“If two (or even more) civilizations without any connections created the belief that this world is a dream, would that be a signal to look not only in the white bearded old man as a God?”
No.. no it wouldn’t. It would be a sign that some interesting anthropological studies could be done though. Probably relating to cultural similarities (old men as “wise” or “fatherly” for example), and potentially similar ancestral cultures or beliefs.
By that same logic you can say that all conspiracy theories are right (because more than one person, or group of people, that are unrelated, believe them to be true). I’m sure you don’t mean to imply that either…
btw – I’m not posting here to be abusive or anything, it seemed to me that you’d like a good logical debate/discussion.
Greg, the brain produces something when irritant or stimulant is present.
The experiment was done with two groups.
Only the one which was made to BELIEF that receives painkiller produced “brain painkiller”.
We can not argue the science.
On your second answer I’ll answer like you; See above.
I think that you must revise the way you are understanding some of the concepts.
Then we can talk, my friend.
Just start from the point that all concepts are conscious creations and are serving the conscious understanding.
There is no such thing as time and mathematics out of your conscious.
Thanks for stopping by and saying your word 🙂
“Only the one which was made to BELIEF that receives painkiller produced “brain painkiller“.
Yes, it’s called the Placebo effect, which I mentioned above. Why are you repeating this? It’s not like this effect hasn’t been known for a long time. There are many, many studies regarding it. It’s not like it’s a new discovery… I learned about it when I was in high-school!
I also addressed that in the comments above.
“We can not argue the science”.
And I’m not. No-where have I. I’m disputing the conclusions you are coming to that are based on that science. They are illogical, which is fine when you’re making a faith based decision, but not when you claim to have scientific or logical methods to prove your hypothesis.
“I think that you must revise the way you are understanding some of the concepts”.
I would argue the same about you. We cannot talk about a scientific proof, or logical deduction, when you are deviating from the methods of scientific analysis and/or logic.
“Just start from the point that all concepts are conscious creations and are serving the conscious understanding.”
So I should start by assuming you are right… to prove that you are right? Do you see the foolishness of that? You need to prove this statement before you can build any further argument.
“There is no such thing as time and mathematics out of your conscious.”
There is no such thing as maths or time? So without my mind the universe ends? Or yours? Or is it the combination of everyone? There are some huge gaping holes in that idea. Huge.
Again, this is a statement that relies on the previous one, and so the previous statement needs to be proven. I admit it is an interesting philosophical question (what is mind? If our minds create everything we experience, how can we know what is real and what is not? etc…) but it is a philosophical debate, not a scientific one.
Again – you have huge unsupported assertions. You need to provide support for these before you can have anything close to a solid theory, at the moment you barely have a hypothesis, it’s more of a conjecture.
Placebo effect wasn’t proved as chemical producing effect.
It was believed that it is auto-suggestion (the person belief and feels better)
This experiment proved that the BELIEF makes the brain to produce chemicals.
My friend, you must know the basics of human’s world, perceptions and logic.
Of course there is no mathematics without consciousness 😀
It is the same with time.
Why would Universe need time?
And what is time, anyway?
It is consciously created measure to serve human’s consciousness.
It measures our life with the criteria of the Earth path around the Sun.
Time is for the consciousness, not for the Universe 🙂
And YES, when you die, the Universe will die.
You are the Universe.
You are One Universe.
I am another Universe.
You don’t know and you’ll never know how I (or any other) perceives colors, taste, distance, beauty and everything you could think off.
We have NAMES for equalizing our Universes.
Red is only name for the color you see now.
But how do you know whether I see the same color.
OK, that would be too advanced talk for you, but just to give you and idea for the way we are using concepts in our life.
Just think, what if all this is your night dream 😀
Did Dawkins ever considered the possibility of God existence out of the RELIGION?
Just because humans lost the truth and twisted it in the religion doesn’t mean that God does not exist, my friend.
And man have to be damn stupid, to say that there is no God, because the religion is wrong.
Since man learned to write symbols God exists in the scriptures.
In fact, the first known scriptures are about God, written by people who said that God exist.
Don’t tell me that those who were wise enough to invent the letters were stupid to believe in God who doesn’t exist 😀
And not in a last place, because we can not know whether the Universe exist without conscious observation, we must consider the consciousness as one of the Universal components.
Then, God has 50% chance to exist 😀
And Dawkins will be wrong.
I mean, he is very wrong.